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http://www.hondosackett.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1202189768

Message started by Soda on Feb 5^th, 2008, 12:36am

Title: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 5^th, 2008, 12:36am

While I've always tried my hardest to be open-minded of all religions, I came across a website a while ago which changed a lot of my misconceptions about Christianity. Surprisingly, I've actually really enjoyed reading its contents. It's actually inspired me to pick up my copy of the New King James Version of the Bible and read some more.

Anyway, the website is www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com (http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com/) if you want to check it out. :) Please, let me know what you think.

Take care,
Soda.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Nathan Kaiser on Feb 7^th, 2008, 10:45pm

Well thats good then i hope all Gays and Lesbains that love the Lord and belive in Crist's Sacrifice get into heaven :)

Title: Re: Website
Post by Nyperold on Feb 7^th, 2008, 10:55pm

Well, first I'll address slavery:

Slavery as it was allowed in the Bible had rules to it. Compare these rules to how slavery was done until "recently", when it was abolished in America. (Not that these rules were always followed even among the people of Israel...)

* A person became a slave because of a debt he couldn't pay right then. Basically, he worked it off.
* A slave was not allowed to work on the Sabbath, and his master was not allowed to have him work.
*If a man killed his slave with a rod, he would surely be punished for it.
* A slave had to be released in the seventh year without paying anything. In fact, he was to be sent off with grain and wine. If he came in married, his wife was supposed to leave with him. (Check out Jeremiah 34 for something about that.)
*Another way for him to be set free would be if the master destroyed his eye or knocked out his tooth.
* If a slave desired to stay with his master, he had to get his ear pierced and a ring put through it. (That this might even be possible rather than implied says something about the state of slavery under this system.)

Among other things. Doesn't really sound like the system used here, does it?

But yeah, believing people of African descent to be under the curse on Ham's son, Canaan, which was not put on his other sons, is faulty, indeed.

Quote:

...and none of them speaks to the situation of twenty-first century...

Time period is irrelevant. "Oh, hey, that was written 3-4000 years ago! It can't possibly apply today!" ::)

Only 6 negative verses? That's surely not enough to make it true! ::)

Quote:

Matthew 8:5-13

This man is a servant. Whether he is also a gay lover seems to depend on whether the person attempting to make his point wants to force-fit him into that role or not.

Quote:

Ruth 1:14

Dabaq. Yes, loyalty or devotion. In this case, of a woman towards the mother of her deceased husband, who had probably become like a mother to her in those 10 years. And here's the kicker, Ruth later got married to a man. This is not a lesbian relationship. Example invalid.

*snip out "it's not talking about what it's talking about" stuff*

He should really just admit that he doesn't actually believe the Bible unless it says what he believes and get on with it.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Hondo I. Sackett on Feb 8^th, 2008, 1:32am

you also find that Sodom and Gamora were destroyed because of same sex relationships. there are others like the passage that says since men have rejected God he at times turns them to the things not convenient for the flesh, wich physically you can see man and woman were made for each other. i really believe same sex relationships are not natural and wrong. I don't hate the people involved, but I do see it as a sin.

I won't throw anyone out for it here as long as it is not forcibly brought up all the time. I see this as bein' a shame to society and our country.

Hondo

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 10^th, 2008, 6:53pm

Christianity is not for me then. My apologies for bothering you.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 13^th, 2008, 11:10am

Understand one thing about Christianity.

No matter how many time you may faulter, 'god' will forgive you if you ask for that forgiveness. In Christianity, 'god' understands that we are human, are not perfect, and will faulter to the pattern of our choice preferences; therefore he will forgive those who ask for forgiveness.

This is not a choice matter of one's sexual orientation. This is a matter of choices one makes in life, which includes acceptance and forgiveness.

This is a far better choice than someother religions where you are forced to believe or are killed for the choices you make.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 14^th, 2008, 7:55pm

Fernando wrote:

I understand that much, but one thing still eludes me. Why do Christians insist on persecuting others, especially considering what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5? From the Christian perspective, is the final judgment not up to God?

Fernando wrote:

This is a far better choice than someother religions where you are forced to believe or are killed for the choices you make.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 14^th, 2008, 10:00pm

Soda wrote:

[quote author=Fernando link=1202189768/0#5 date=1202919046]Understand one thing about Christianity.

No matter how many time you may faulter, 'god' will forgive you if you ask for that forgiveness. In Christianity, 'god' understands that we are human, are not perfect, and will faulter to the pattern of our choice preferences; therefore he will forgive those who ask for forgiveness.

This is not a choice matter of one's sexual orientation. This is a matter of choices one makes in life, which includes acceptance and forgiveness.

This is a far better choice than someother religions where you are forced to believe or are killed for the choices you make.

I am sorry, but I have seen much evidence to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bartholomew%27s_Day_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1641
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_persecution_by_Christians[/quote]

Dont look at History so one sided.
These events did not spontaneously started, and most of them are reactionary responces to events that fell upon Christian communities. Before Christianity (and still to this day), Jews were the pick-on group of day. I'm just going to take one these, forI know the historical facts that has occurred at the time. Unfortunately, I am related to this historical event, for my blood and genetic linage goes back to the Spanish Crown and the family that protects it until 1863.

(Excuse me if I'm off by a few years, as I'm doing this off the top of my head and not researching it from the net.)

The Spanish Inquisition and in part, the Crusades, were started about 70 years before, when A Muslim Emperor (who some said had syphillis on the brain), decided to end all peaceful trade with the Western European cultures and attack them out right in 1420. Millions died at his hand. But technology for what it was for its day- news of such attacks, and the attacks themselves did not take over all of Europe until 1430-1440. By the time it reached Spain, it was mid 1450's. It was also at this time that Spain was reunifying into a nation, instead of a cluster of nation states. It this time, No other country was unified. Final unification came from the marriage of King Ferdinand of Leon & Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castillino in 1470's

But at the same time, the mulsim hordes were attacking at the spanish gates. The Catholic Church came to Spain seeking refuge from Muslims, and as such granted powers to the Royal family if they were to help them in battle. This little war lasted for decades, part of which was the Spanish Inquisiton. It ended with the Marriage of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. The rest is history.

So to say that the Spanish Inquistion was something that the Spanards decided to get upand do on their own, is wrong. Spain was not yet a unfied country. And the Muslim Moors came in to attack, so Spain was the only country to repell the attacks, and enacted the Inquisition as a defense and loyalty mechanism. Once Spain repelled them back out of their borders, other countries/nation-stated joined in and sent the muslms back the Arabian sub-continent.

Like I said- dont look at history so 1 sided. Do the reseach, dig deeper into the events, and understand what happened. And consider that this is a guy who's ancestors were part of the Spanish Inquistion and Spanish Royal history. Sometimes things happen because some old feeling from 100 years before gets brought up and somebody strikes first, and things continue from there.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 14^th, 2008, 10:14pm

Also understand this: There are 3 main Christian Churches and a few thousand demoninations from there.

The smallest of the 3, which started out at the largest are the Armenians. Their creation was as the Army of the Christian church. The Coptic Catholic Church is the Original church which was started by the followers of John the Baptist and Jesus years after their deaths. They are the one who protect the holy sites. This church divides into the Ethiopean Orthodox and Egyptian Catholic churches.

The largest is the Roman Catholic Church, started by the emporer Constantine. They developed both themselves and the Armenians. It is from the Roman Catholic Church that it breaks up into the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches, and later in history- all other Christian Churhes which broke off due to issues with past popes and church policies.

So, Christianity comes in many forms, sizes and colours. It does not matter whether which church you worship in, what does matter is the faith. That is where the differences lie.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 15^th, 2008, 12:03am

Thanks so much for discussing this with me. I'm finding this most interesting and exciting. I never quite grasped how slow information would travel earlier in history, so sometimes I don't take these things into consideration. Putting that aside, it can be said that the Christians of these eras did not have to be so brutal, nor did they need to execute or imprison people. For example, rather than burning the witches in the Salem witch trials, could they not have simply exiled them?

Also, if the faith is what matters (rather than the individual church/denomination), then how are people able to reconcile their different interpretations? That doesn't seem to happen, and as such, different groups get quite angry towards each other. The wouldjesusdiscriminate.com website is a good example: some people interpret the Bible as being non-discriminatory towards homosexuals, while other people choose to interpret the Bible as demanding punishment towards homosexuals. Also, I have noticed that Christians will fight among themselves over other theological issues, such as the right to divorce (Henry the 8th of England is a good example of this), the concept of the Holy Trinity (whether the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one unified entity or three separate entities; compare Catholicism to Protestantism), and political aspects (depending upon whether the church interprets the Bible as being supportive of left-wing or right-wing politics; compare, for example, George Bush's interpretations to, for example again, Hugo Chavez's interpretations). How can they argue and disrespect each other, if in the end they are all equal brothers in Christ?

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 15^th, 2008, 12:38am

This is like that everywhere. Muslim Shities killing off Muslim Sunies. Chinese Budists killing Tibetian Budists. Catholics vs Prodestants. Jews killing other jews. It all makes no sense. The only thing that we can agree on is that we can not agree on anything.

There are how knows many versions of the bible, again 3 main churches- thousands of denominations. Personally, I would like to get very known copy of ever known religious text and dump it upon Jesus' feet and ask him which one is the one and only correct book. Chances are he would walk away, for none of them are the correct scribe. Worst yet, he'll come back to me with a blank art book to give.

I at a point where I do not care about the things I can not change. So why deal with them? People in Etheopia are starving. So? They are unwilling to help themselves out of a bad situation. But if a friend or family is starving- I help them. I draw the lines for my battles, not allow others to make those choices for me for idiotic ideals that only exist in the imagination of mad men.

What happen in history, stays in history. Again, I have no power in changing them so why bother? True- one must learn the lessons of history so that we dont make the same mistakes again, but it seems that as humans, we continue to do so.

Again, I dont care about the actions of others, espcially when I cannot alter their actions and they do not affect me. All I care about is the tiny circle of friends and family that I have, and anyone making a threat against them will have to deal with me. Some say that it is my Spanard within me. Other say that its me being a Roman Catholic. People are so willing to slap on labels that they are blinded by the actions that they do. I am me- being Spanish and Roman Catholic are small facets of the person that I am. People need to see that within themselves and stop making excuses about others. History is the past, it can not be changed, so its time to pick one's self up and do as they need.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Winston on Feb 16^th, 2008, 2:37am

Fernando wrote:

No, it is not like that everywhere, at least in religious context. This point that Soda raises - that many interpretations of Christianity are hopelessly unable to reconcile with others and resort to confrontation and violence - is the primary flaw that prevents me from having any interest in being any of those forms of Christian. I evaluate by its results what the real priorities of a belief system are and what worth lies in it. Something that only seems to turn out to be good for petty squabbling, fearmongering, and abuse as a tool for exerting power is not worthy of consideration.

This is why I found something to be unique in Buddhism. Although there are so many different forms, the understanding shared between them all is that they all seek the same goal, simply through different means. As such, there really aren't many "my way is the only right one" conflicts between different branches. The goal of Buddhism is to actually pursue its stated goal, not to be a tool for controlling others. The different branches and forms have no need to fight with one another for control.

The "Chinese Buddhists killing Tibetian Buddhists" is thing is also misleading. The Chinese government is communist, not theocratic, and has no trace of any real Buddhist influence anywhere in its motivations or methods. Their illegitimate invasion of Tibet and the current terrorist and tyrannical acts they commit there are political, not about Buddhists killing other Buddhists over beliefs.

Fernando wrote:

There are how knows many versions of the bible, again 3 main churches- thousands of denominations. Personally, I would like to get very known copy of ever known religious text and dump it upon Jesus' feet and ask him which one is the one and only correct book. Chances are he would walk away, for none of them are the correct scribe. Worst yet, he'll come back to me with a blank art book to give.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 17^th, 2008, 10:04pm

Winston wrote:

[quote author=Fernando link=1202189768/10#10 date=1203053917]This is like that everywhere. Muslim Shities killing off Muslim Sunies. Chinese Budists killing Tibetian Budists. Catholics vs Prodestants. Jews killing other jews. It all makes no sense. The only thing that we can agree on is that we can not agree on anything.

[quote author=Fernando link=1202189768/10#10 date=1203053917]There are how knows many versions of the bible, again 3 main churches- thousands of denominations. Personally, I would like to get very known copy of ever known religious text and dump it upon Jesus' feet and ask him which one is the one and only correct book. Chances are he would walk away, for none of them are the correct scribe. Worst yet, he'll come back to me with a blank art book to give.

Actually, he'd probably say that each and every one of those books is right because they all have something good in 'em. The only reason people even need to ask which one is "right" and which one is "wrong" is that so many people just don't feel like taking ten seconds of genuine thought get over their fat bloated egos to try and see things from another point of view.[/quote]
What I'm asking for is the totally correct book, total truth and not partial truths or misinterpretted truths. It is not too much to ask for. In that content, none of the written books fit, and a blank book would. He is god... he is supposed to give answers when asked.

But as for Christanity, like any other religion, you get out of it what you put into it. Only exceptions are religions that ask for blind loyal faith at the end of a sword (or gun- updated for modern times). Then that is no religion at all.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 18^th, 2008, 7:55pm

Fernando wrote:

This paints a very bleak picture of religion. If religion begets death, then I believe that life would be best if everyone were atheist.

Fernando wrote:

So, what you're saying is that God identifies no religious text as wholly correct? How are we, as His children, meant to identify which laws to live by? For example, Bible has either been protected by Holy means and is wholly true, or it has not and it has become corrupted. From what you've said, the latter is more likely true. I've seen first hand what happens with human communication, and I could understand if the Bible had been written based on distorted stories and 'Chinese whispers'. It's possible that nobody on this planet is living life correctly, in which case Heaven is likely to be a very lonely place.

Fernando wrote:

I at a point where I do not care about the things I can not change. So why deal with them? People in Etheopia are starving. So? They are unwilling to help themselves out of a bad situation. But if a friend or family is starving- I help them. I draw the lines for my battles, not allow others to make those choices for me for idiotic ideals that only exist in the imagination of mad men.

But who determines who is mad? Look at L. Ron Hubbard, the original leader of the Scientologist church. All accounts I've read indicate that he was quite crazy in his elder years (at least!), to the point of refusing to see doctors, despite numerous illnesses and even a broken limb. Yet, Scientologists who reach an OT level will swear that he and his works are inerrant.

Fernando wrote:

What happen in history, stays in history. Again, I have no power in changing them so why bother? True- one must learn the lessons of history so that we dont make the same mistakes again, but it seems that as humans, we continue to do so.

But what if history is rewritten, or badly recorded in the first place. Revisionism has happened, and will continue to happen.

Fernando wrote:

Again, I dont care about the actions of others, espcially when I cannot alter their actions and they do not affect me. All I care about is the tiny circle of friends and family that I have, and anyone making a threat against them will have to deal with me. Some say that it is my Spanard within me. Other say that its me being a Roman Catholic. People are so willing to slap on labels that they are blinded by the actions that they do. I am me- being Spanish and Roman Catholic are small facets of the person that I am. People need to see that within themselves and stop making excuses about others. History is the past, it can not be changed, so its time to pick one's self up and do as they need.

That is a fairly reasonable way to live; one cannot help but live life as best they can, and 'isolate' themselves to friends and family that they enjoy. However, I am faced with a different situation. Some people will try their hardest to interfere with others. Whether they are simply trying to 'spread their faith', or murdering people in the name of some deity, these people cannot be avoided. For example, one group where I live, the Australian Christian Lobby, has successfully pressed both major Australian political parties into refusing same-sex marriage. This lobby has crossed a line here, and put their feet in my cake (so to speak). How can I live comfortably, when my basic human rights are being denied, and my sexuality is being discriminated against, all in the name of (someone's perception of) God? A similar thing happened at the Acorn Cafe, and now I am banned from there, simply for petitioning the administration for fairness in their rules. They strangely identified my petitioning at unfair criticism, and even called my avatar 'odd', but that's beside the point. I've been discriminated against yet again, in the name of a God. I've even had Christians knocking on my door to tell me the evils of homosexuality (once every month or so), and leaving notes and tracts in my letterbox (I usually get one or two a week).

I live my life like you live yours: I have my circle of friends and family, and I try to not involve myself in the affairs of others. However, people (usually Christian, but others too) consistently trespass into my life with apparent malice. How can I cope with that?

Winston wrote:

That's what I am perceiving from the realm of Abrahamic religion. It's a shame, because in general the primary teachings seem to be quite decent ('love your neighbour', 'do not murder', 'do not steal', 'love your parents', and so on).

Winston wrote:

This is why I found something to be unique in Buddhism. Although there are so many different forms, the understanding shared between them all is that they all seek the same goal, simply through different means. As such, there really aren't many "my way is the only right one" conflicts between different branches. The goal of Buddhism is to actually pursue its stated goal, not to be a tool for controlling others. The different branches and forms have no need to fight with one another for control.

That sounds quite nice, and worth considering. I'll have to read more about Buddhism. Unfortunately, were I to take it up, it would undoubtedly be used as another lever against me, to prove how 'sinful' my life is.

Fernando wrote:

Actually, my point was that no matter the religion, there is a group or group within that is willing to kill for its points to be expressed over another. The Chinese Buddhist church is not a real relgion, but rather a government subsidized group which will allow Tibetian Buddhists to be part of the Chinese system without persecution. They have their own (fake) Lamma (who recently dies and they have yet found a replacement). But as far as Buddhism is concerened, this fake group is out there killing the real ones in the name of the Chinese government.

I tend to agree with Winston here. These people seem to be less of a religion, and more of a puppet being used to promote the themes of the Chinese Government. Their leadership appears to have been appointed into their roles by the Chinese Government, rather than their peers in their religion. This makes me think twice about their authenticity.

Fernando wrote:

What I'm asking for is the totally correct book, total truth and not partial truths or misinterpretted truths. It is not too much to ask for. In that content, none of the written books fit, and a blank book would. He is god... he is supposed to give answers when asked.

I'd like to read this book too. Why does He not provide answers, if people are asking for them?

Now, referring this all back to the topic at hand, I do not see how I am supposed to refuse the man that I love and join a Christian church, taking a chance that the denomination I pick is correct. That would be heartless, and I could never do such a thing. That's why I cannot understand why people cannot be more tolerant of the concept of homosexuality, or Wicca, or Hinduism, or abortion. If the teachings of God are so convoluted, so debatable, so ill-defined and so diluted, then how can anyone take one particular interpretation and adhere to it so adamantly? They've taking a shapeless hunk of ore (with so many possibilities), and fashioned into a sword and shield, which they violently wield against people who dare point out the ambiguity of it all. How can they do that?

It's left me in tears, more than once.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 20^th, 2008, 12:02pm

People are just plain stupid and self center governing to allow anything to come between them and that which they hold holy in their views. The problem is, this perception is not the case. People see what they want to see and not what is actually there, and thus will attack their POVs.

Again, as I stated, Christianity has been a defender of its beliefs (like any other religion), and more often it takes a stance of defense that over powers any attack thrown at it and takes actions to destroy the attackers. In all cases, you can say 'If this event did not start it, then the Christians involved would not have been the destructive force...'

This is true of everyone of everything. You would not want for somebody to come to defile your home: family, friend, stranger or foe. You would take actions to get them out of your home.

Dont think about others. Only think what is right for you and how things fit for you. Despite the wrongs of the Roman Catholic Church, I accept only the good that they have to offer. If I can change things, I will. It is not the church that I follow, but the message that they have to give.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 20^th, 2008, 7:05pm

This is quite interesting... thanks for discussing it with my Fernando. :)

Fernando wrote:

This is true, to a degree. This is also why I'm such a firm believer in tolerance. Intolerance only results in hurt feelings and unnecessary conflict, which could so easily be avoided. Eternal happiness may await some of us, but some happiness here and now too will not hurt us. :)

Fernando wrote:

Again, as I stated, Christianity has been a defender of its beliefs (like any other religion), and more often it takes a stance of defense that over powers any attack thrown at it and takes actions to destroy the attackers. In all cases, you can say 'If this event did not start it, then the Christians involved would not have been the destructive force...'

I understand what you are saying, and this is true of many situations in history, but there are a few cases that fall outside that scope. I'll cover two that I'm familiar with:

The witch hunts... lots of innocent people were burnt or drowned for merely practicing a different belief. Whether someone else considers that belief to be the work of Satan or not is not really relevant. Neo-pagans made no deliberate aggression towards Christianity; but Christianity made a deliberate aggression towards them. So long as Neo-pagans are not hurting anyone, and they're tolerant of everyone else, I can't see the problem.
The current political situation with homosexuals... lots of innocent people are having basic human rights denied for merely falling in love with someone of the same gender. Whether someone else considers that love to be the work of Satan or not is not really relevant. Homosexuals made no deliberate aggression towards Christianity; but Christianity made a deliberate aggression towards them. So long as homosexuals are not hurting anyone, and they're tolerant of everyone else, I can't see the problem.

Fernando wrote:

This is true of everyone of everything. You would not want for somebody to come to defile your home: family, friend, stranger or foe. You would take actions to get them out of your home.

True. But, following your 'home' metaphor, if the person in question were quietly sitting outside on the pavement, the homeowner would have no right to harm or abuse them. Likewise, if someone wants to do something that harms nobody, yet is contrary to a religious belief, the religious have no right to harm, abuse, disadvantage or murder them.

Fernando wrote:

Dont think about others. Only think what is right for you and how things fit for you. Despite the wrongs of the Roman Catholic Church, I accept only the good that they have to offer. If I can change things, I will. It is not the church that I follow, but the message that they have to give.

That's understandable, and even admirable, but isn't it a bit like the "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" concept? Although it's a lot more extreme, I do remember reading of a politician, and his party was involved in some particularly nasty business. Whenever someone tried to bring this nasty business to his attention, he would deliberately go out of his way to avoid learning what horrible things were happening. Even though he didn't know exactly what bad things were happening, he did know that something terrible was occurring, and he chose to ignore it. However, he supported his government, and quite vehemently too. Does this still not make him guilty, even to some extent?

So, I now have a few outstanding questions.

If religion is so ill-defined and debatable, how can someone so avidly defend their own self-perceived interpretation, despite the ambiguity that God has provided?
Why have churches been so historically violent, if peaceful solutions to the problems they perceive could have been found (such as merely exiling witches, rather than burning them)?
Why are churches so vigilant in attacking groups who are guilty of nothing but offending the church's own perception of morality?

Can anyone answer these questions for me please? Hondo, Nyperold, I'd be very grateful to hear your ideas. Thanks for your time. :)

Title: Re: Website
Post by Hondo I. Sackett on Feb 20^th, 2008, 11:05pm

folk don't like my views on this but I'll tell ya out straight. I believe the Bible in its entirety is true. from the line of believers I technically hold to there was not much fightin' as with the catholics and such, but even with a belief Man is inherently sinful and prone to mistakes. even whole denominations. I believe the bible clearly states how the earth was made, how we are sinful and it gives us the moral guidelines to follow as well. I believe we can not work to get to heaven as only faith through Jesus Christ can save your soul as he paid the price for our sins. I believe that there is one God and he is in 3 distinct persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I don't hate folk how believe differently, even though as humans we tend to do that, I just feel bad that they don't see the truth. I do believe homosexuality is wrong, but i believe it is just as wrong as premarital sex for a heterosexual individual. I don't believe it is natural 'cause the Bible says it is not, but God let mens minds drift to this because they have rejected him so long. I don't see it as a natural right either. I can not make a person believe anythin'. thats up to God, I believe, but you ask and i'll tell you what I believe. Witch huntin' is not the right way, but I do see wrong in this all. from takin' away guns from the citizens to abortion to same sex marriages. all sin is on the same level in Gods eyes and he will forgive and help us to get out of sin if we truly repent and ask his help. he never said it would be easy, but its harder without him. I don't see Christianity as ill-defined but I see people that try to redefine it to suit them and that is wrong. yes there is a lot of 'Religions' out there but, contrary to some opinions, I don't see true Christianity as a religion. more as a faith. Please take this not as an offense but as a genuine worry over lost souls. I am not good at words and I come across harsh, but if a person is 'bout to get hit by a car do you yell to them or wait to get within' a polite conversation distance and suggest they move out of the way? I see this as that type of situation. lay it out and try to save the lost before they are lost forever. I'll be glad to answer anythin' else more in depth if you wish. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I'm not sorry for what it says or for truth.

Hondo

Title: Re: Website
Post by Winston on Feb 21^st, 2008, 12:17am

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I believe we can not work to get to heaven as only faith through Jesus Christ can save your soul as he paid the price for our sins.

That depends on whether or not you buy into the - pardon my opinion - crude concept that heaven is a literal afterlife, and worse, that it may be reached only in one particular way. That makes very little sense to me, considering.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I don't see Christianity as ill-defined but I see people that try to redefine it to suit them and that is wrong.

Then all Christendom is "wrong" and corrupt. Any Christianity you practice has already been redefined in the past to suit something for someone - that's how it got to where it is today.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 21^st, 2008, 12:56am

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I'll be glad to answer anythin' else more in depth if you wish. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I'm not sorry for what it says or for truth.

I appreciate your reply, to be honest. After all, I did ask you for it! :)

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

folk don't like my views on this but I'll tell ya out straight. I believe the Bible in its entirety is true.

That doesn’t bother me in the least.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I believe the bible clearly states how the earth was made, how we are sinful and it gives us the moral guidelines to follow as well.

I never did quite understand the concept of ‘original sin’, where Adam and Eve consumed the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. If the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life were not meant to be consumed, then why did God place them in the Garden of Eden? Also, bear in mind that human beings were made deliberately naïve, and as such, is it a real surprise that they were gullible when approached by the Serpent?

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I do believe homosexuality is wrong, but i believe it is just as wrong as premarital sex for a heterosexual individual. I don't believe it is natural 'cause the Bible says it is not, but God let mens minds drift to this because they have rejected him so long. I don't see it as a natural right either.

Deaf people use sign language to communicate, by using their hands. Using the hands to communicate a complete language is also an unnatural use of the body. I do not mean to sound confrontational, but does this make it also a sin?

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

all sin is on the same level in Gods eyes and he will forgive and help us to get out of sin if we truly repent and ask his help.

I always thought that there were 'degrees' of sin. Leviticus 19:19 clearly states that wearing clothing of mixed fibre is also a sin (link (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:19;&version=31;)). Is that as bad a sin as, say murder or theft?

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I don't see Christianity as ill-defined but I see people that try to redefine it to suit them and that is wrong.

That’s different to what Fernando said, but it does answer one of my questions. Thanks! :) So, in essence, you’re saying that the Biblical interpretation you have taken is correct, and other definitions are either ill-advised, mis-understood, or deliberately contorted? How does the average person (or even a particularly unintelligent person) tell which interpretation is right?

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

yes there is a lot of 'Religions' out there but, contrary to some opinions, I don't see true Christianity as a religion. more as a faith.

I always use the words ‘religion’ and ‘faith’ interchangeably. How do you define each one?

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

Please take this not as an offense but as a genuine worry over lost souls.

I suppose that it is reasonable to want to save people, but from their perspective, Jesus Christ may not appear as a saviour, or a Messiah. Instead, He may appear as something a lot worse than that. Attempting to ‘save’ these people may be taken as an insult to their intelligence and their own beliefs, and may only generate animosity.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I am not good at words and I come across harsh,

Hee hee hee... me too! I’m sorry if I ever come across that way. ;)

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

but if a person is 'bout to get hit by a car do you yell to them or wait to get within' a polite conversation distance and suggest they move out of the way?

So, in other words, it’s okay to spread the Bible through any means necessary, provided that God finds those means acceptable and not sinful? That seems reasonable from a Christian point of view, but other people might find this, for want of better words, annoying or even insulting.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I see this as that type of situation. lay it out and try to save the lost before they are lost forever.

From a Christian perspective, if they choose to be ‘lost’, then can you not respect their wishes?

Also, I’ve got another question. Has there ever been any written works describing the history of the Earth, but written from Lucifer’s point of view? I enjoyed reading Genesis, and I’d like to read it from Lucifer’s perspective too. Like a Devil’s Advocate kind of thing, you know?

Anyways, thanks heaps for your replies, Hondo. I hope we can continue this conversation without any bad feelings. :)

Title: Re: Website
Post by Winston on Feb 21^st, 2008, 4:23pm

Soda wrote:

Also, I[ch8217]ve got another question. Has there ever been any written works describing the history of the Earth, but written from Lucifer[ch8217]s point of view? I enjoyed reading Genesis, and I[ch8217]d like to read it from Lucifer[ch8217]s perspective too. Like a Devil[ch8217]s Advocate kind of thing, you know?

Check out Paradise Lost, by John Milton.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Winston on Feb 21^st, 2008, 5:14pm

Soda wrote:

[quote author=Hondo I. Sackett link=1202189768/10#16 date=1203566739]yes there is a lot of 'Religions' out there but, contrary to some opinions, I don't see true Christianity as a religion. more as a faith.

I always use the words [ch8216]religion[ch8217] and [ch8216]faith[ch8217] interchangeably. How do you define each one?[/quote]

This is a game of words that I have seen many Christians playing. Many people don't want to perceive that their religion is in fact a religion just like any other (including the ones they disagree with and think are obviously false and silly superstitions), they have to create some special status to set it apart. This is their way of creating a superior status for their beliefs in their own mind.

However, by any conventional definition, Christianity is clearly a religion like any other. Trying to just call it something else doesn't really change that.

I'm not sure what you're really looking for, Soda, but since you seem to be interested in finding a religion, it occurred to me that maybe an idea for you would be to look at Wicca or various other related neopagan beliefs. That's about as gay-friendly a family of religions as you're going to come across, I think. Admittedly, they're young systems, sometimes still in formative stages, but there are some branches that are decades old and fairly well solidified in their teachings, and it's growing rapidly because a lot of people are finding that it serves them better than the more traditional religious options for various reasons. The downside to that option, though, may be that depending in your surroundings, you might have to stay kinda quiet about it, or else endure the stigma of being perceived as a "witch" (although in fact, most wiccans and other neopagans are not in fact witches at all).

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 21^st, 2008, 7:40pm

Winston wrote:

This is a game of words that I have seen many Christians playing. Many people don't want to perceive that their religion is in fact a religion just like any other (including the ones they disagree with and think are obviously false and silly superstitions), they have to create some special status to set it apart. This is their way of creating a superior status for their beliefs in their own mind.

However, by any conventional definition, Christianity is clearly a religion like any other. Trying to just call it something else doesn't really change that.

I always perceived Christianity as a religion and a faith, as the words mean practically the same thing to me. But if what you say is true, then from my (mostly) detached point of view, calling Christianity a faith and not a religion seems a little... well... demeaning to all the other religions/faiths on the planet (no offence to anyone here). If anything, the only concept that I would consider that could be called a faith and not a religion is Atheism, because its adherents have faith that no deity/deities exists, while their beliefs classically defy (and therefore contradict) the very concept of religion.

Winston wrote:

I'm not sure what you're really looking for, Soda,

I'm not sure what I'm really looking for either, I am sorry to say. ;) I have been unhappy with myself, with the exception being my boyfriend (I'm very happy with him! :) ). I've been particularly unhappy with my own mind, body and soul, for a very long time. I know that some of my woes cannot be helped, but others can... :)

I suppose that my main purpose at the moment is to gain insight into, particularly, the Christian ideology and culture. I don't know if you've noticed, but since my return to CnDRR fandom mid last year, I have had multiple clashes with various members of the fandom, all of whom happen to be Christians. Indeed, people of the Christian faith make up a large percentage of the fandom. If I am to 'integrate' to any great degree, I'll need to learn to understand their way of life, their culture and their reasoning. Some degree of apathy is required. I tried to do that at the Acorn Cafe, and Gabe was very helpful in answering a lot of my questions, but my dialogue there got cut short. I introduced this topic here, as an attempt at reconciling two different schools of thought, and a means of growing a greater understanding of Christianity. I have spent a lot of time reading, but I can think of no better way to understand the feelings of Christians than to interact and ask questions. I know that may seem a rather clinical and detached method, but I am hoping to learn many new things, and (if possible) make some friends along the way. :)

Winston wrote:

but since you seem to be interested in finding a religion,

That is also true, to a degree. I have seen religion causing a lot of problems in the world, and my brain wants me to distance myself from it, but something in my heart tells another story. I seek a greater awareness, some form of enlightenment, and a greater understanding of the world. My mind tells me that some religions cannot possibly provide me with that, but again my heart argues that other religions may.

Winston wrote:

it occurred to me that maybe an idea for you would be to look at Wicca or various other related neopagan beliefs. That's about as gay-friendly a family of religions as you're going to come across, I think. Admittedly, they're young systems, sometimes still in formative stages, but there are some branches that are decades old and fairly well solidified in their teachings, and it's growing rapidly because a lot of people are finding that it serves them better than the more traditional religious options for various reasons. The downside to that option, though, may be that depending in your surroundings, you might have to stay kinda quiet about it, or else endure the stigma of being perceived as a "witch" (although in fact, most wiccans and other neopagans are not in fact witches at all).

Wicca is a very fascinating religion. I have read up on it, and what you say is mostly true, although I did read an article (in the last edition of Australian Witchcraft magazine, before it went out of print) pointing out that Gardnerian Wicca teaches that heterosexual couplings are ideal and valued more than homosexual ones (to the point where many of their covens reject homosexuals). The theory behind this concept is outlined in their own statement: "Ritual is important but fellowship is more so; we practice gender magic, rather than sex magic as such; everything in Gardnerian is arranged male to female, female to male." However, conversely, Alexandrian Wicca teaches that all forms of mutual love and pleasure between adults is 'of the Goddess', so to speak, and revelling in such is like a tribute to Her. By this concept, they value homosexual couplings to be equal to heterosexual ones. Perhaps my understanding of this is somehow skewed, especially considering that I read about these over a year ago, but that is what I understand of these two particular branches of Wicca.

As you said, there is a great stigma attached to Wicca and other Neo-pagan religions. Considering what I have learnt of Christianity, many Christians may only consider a homosexual Wiccan to be proof that homosexuality is inherently evil, as witchcraft (mistakenly and erroneously synonymous with Wicca in the minds of many) and homosexuality are expressly declared sinful in the Bible. “Misery loves company”, as the old saying goes. I am not one to want to reinforce stereotypes I perceive as negative (and as such you’ll never see me in a Croc Dundee hat, nor will I say “G’day mate!” ;) ), but conversely, I am not one to lie about (or even veil) my true feelings. If I feel or know something, and the circumstances are appropriate, I will come out and say it. And I expect the same of everyone else, of course! :) But that would leave me with a rather difficult conundrum, and one not easily resolved.

I might do a little more reading into Wicca, particularly the non-denominational ‘solitary’ path of which I have heard much. Thanks for that guidance, Winston. I really appreciate it. :) Although, I would be grateful of any other advice that anyone else may have. ;)

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 22^nd, 2008, 9:10pm

Let me put it in the fewest words possible...
-You cant believe in god if you dont believe in yourself.
-You cant love anyone else if you dont love yourself.
-You cant have faith in others if you dont have it for yourself.

One of the commandments say "Love thy neighbor as thou love one's self."
OK, what if you hate yourself, do you go about hating others?

I am a firm believer in what one reaps what they sow. You cant plant cabbage seeds and expect corn to grow in its place.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 25^th, 2008, 9:39pm

Fernando wrote:

Title: Re: Website
Post by Hondo I. Sackett on Feb 25^th, 2008, 10:40pm

while what Fernando says is true, in essence, God can help you overcome your hate and such. But you have to want out and be willin' to change and let God take control of you life and have the blood of his son wash your sins away. You have to have faith in god and want to change.
I know I have not posted a reply to you in a while and i'm sorry it took so long. Winston hates it when i say Christianity is a faith not a religion, but let me give you my reason why I say that. I say it is a faith 'cause thats all it takes. you have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and your sins are washed away. I do believe this is the only way, but I know others don't and that is not why I don't categorize it as a religion. Religion I define as a 'belief' system in which the salvation of one soul is not certain and to even hope to obtain salvation you must do good works, strive to be 'good', and follow a set of rules or customs to obtain hope of salvation. I'll try to answer more of the questions you asked earlier later on but for now, think on these things.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Winston on Feb 26^th, 2008, 8:57pm

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

The will to change is essential, yes. But I don't think faith in God, much less a faith in a vicarious atonement through shed blood, is the only way to go about things.

I've made some very dramatic changes in my life and my mind, and it didn't take God to do it. It was much simpler than that - just took me making a decision and then putting forth the effort behind it to follow through. And, whattya know... Turns out, sometimes a little hard work can change the world! ;)

I suppose that religious might refer to that as the principle of "God helps those who help themselves" or something. I don't really know, or worry, about that. I just know that some things are the right things to do, so I do 'em, and they seem to turn out alright in the end because I believed I could pull it off.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

Winston hates it when i say Christianity is a faith not a religion, but let me give you my reason why I say that. I say it is a faith 'cause thats all it takes. you have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and your sins are washed away. I do believe this is the only way, but I know others don't and that is not why I don't categorize it as a religion. Religion I define as a 'belief' system in which the salvation of one soul is not certain and to even hope to obtain salvation you must do good works, strive to be 'good', and follow a set of rules or customs to obtain hope of salvation. I'll try to answer more of the questions you asked earlier later on but for now, think on these things.

I understand what you're getting at, but I just can't see that as either an accurate, or honest, distinction to make.

First, it's just an attempt at redefining the word "religion" in a way that's convenient to serve your idea of a unique status - notice all the qualifying traits you tacked onto the word in order to try and separate your perception of your belief system from what you want the word "religion" to cover!

Second, doing that doesn't even work, because there are many other religions in which faith is the basis of salvation and good works ultimately are not consequential. Many Muslims believe that a faith in God is what guarantees salvation - good works are an integral teaching going along with that, because the philosophy is that good works reflect a person's desire to work out god's will, but they are not in themselves what gives you salvation. As a Buddhist, too, I can tell you that good works and following rules ultimately are not the determinant of Buddhism's goals. The goal being sought is a better life, a healthier mind and body, and ultimately, enlightenment. As I see it, there's no set of "you must do this" absolutes in that process. This is done through examination and understanding leading to the shaping of a better self and eventually the final erasure of the boundaries of 'self' at all. In some schools of Buddhism, faith is seen as the principle fueling force used to accomplish this. The list goes on and on - I would say that many, maybe even most, religions are at their core just as much about faith being necessary to achieve their goals, and blindly doing good works as being pointless, as Christianity is. It's partly a matter of interpretation, of course, but there's plenty of religions besides Christianity that can have a "faith is all it takes" outlook.

So, going by that narrowed definition of religion, all of those beliefs are also just "faiths" and not religions, and the special distinctive status you were looking to claim for Christianity is gone. Where, in the end, do those kind of wordgames get anyone? I'd rather just call things what they are instead of trying to make them seem different by picking and choosing words to make it imply one thing is something other than what it is.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 26^th, 2008, 9:42pm

Soda wrote:

[quote author=Fernando link=1202189768/20#22 date=1203732621]Let me put it in the fewest words possible...
-You cant believe in god if you dont believe in yourself.
-You cant love anyone else if you dont love yourself.
-You cant have faith in others if you dont have it for yourself.

One of the commandments say "Love thy neighbor as thou love one's self."
OK, what if you hate yourself, do you go about hating others?

I am a firm believer in what one reaps what they sow. You cant plant cabbage seeds and expect corn to grow in its place.

An interesting idea, although off-topic. ;) Okay, so, if I understand what you're saying correctly, I'll recap. You're saying that someone who is particularly hateful of themselves is, in essence, hateful of humankind. These people cannot find faith in God, nor can they find love, nor can they find faith in others. In addition, these people cannot expect to find love returned for their hate (reaping what they sow). So how are they meant to climb out of this chasm of self-loathing? Other people won't help them, and presumably God only helps the faithful. That only leaves themselves, and I don't see how they could give themselves support.[/quote]

I'm going to have to add that if one can not find it within themselves, they will never find it no matter how much they search for it elsewhere. No church, no temple, no anything...

I have heard too many people say, "I did the Born Again thing, and the Buddist thing, and the Agnostic (without knowing what Agnostic really means) thing..." For these people, they never found 'it' within themselves.

What 'it' is... is different for everyperson and yet its the same thing. It is everyone's different POV that makes it appear to be different.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Fernando on Feb 26^th, 2008, 9:52pm

I will also add that Belief in God (a god, any god) is just that. A Belief.
You dont have to be Jewish, Muslim or Christian to believe in god; the founding forefathers of the United Stated, though they came from such roots stated above, were 'Deists (http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Deists)'. And as Diests, they lived their own lives as they saw fit, not worrying about what has to be done as far as the church was concerened, but what was right for themselves and their community. This nation is built on this belief, though we faulter as a nation at times.

Title: Re: Website
Post by Soda on Feb 26^th, 2008, 10:05pm

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

Some people might be hesitant to place their life in the hands of a super-natural entity that they do not fully understand, especially when you consider the trials of Job.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I know I have not posted a reply to you in a while and i'm sorry it took so long.

Don't worry about it... I quite understand. :) I appreciate your help though. My understanding is improving.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

Thank you for your insight, Hondo. I think I understand what you're saying. In essence, Christianity is a faith because, from the Christian perspective, it only takes faith to be saved. That does seem like a prideful thing to say; people from outside the Christian community have every reason to look at Christianity as a 'religion' (using your definition). I'll describe Christianity thusly, based on your points:

"...the salvation of one['s] soul is not certain..." - Christianity does appear to me to fit this idea, provided that the Christian in question follows the primary messages of the Bible and worships God and Jesus (however they are defined). However, as Winston points out, there are other religions that also fit this bill. There are also some religions, like some versions of Neopaganism and Wicca, that do not necessarily indicate the need for 'salvation', but instead focus on one's own ability to achieve enlightenment through reincarnation, upon which they incarnated in the Summerland, which is a place of endless peace, happiness and beauty.
"...to even hope to obtain salvation you must do good works, strive to be 'good'..." - In the bible it says What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2:14-17, NKJV). That tells me that not only does one need faith in God, but that faith is useless ('dead', as he calls it) without good deeds.
"...and follow a set of rules or customs to obtain hope of salvation." - I am sorry to point this out, but there are a lot of set rules and customs in Christianity. Leviticus in the Bible is full of rules, and the ten commandments are, in themselves, rules. As for customs, most denominations have culture, duty and formalities to uphold, which are easily defined as customs. Whether we're talking about the pope's vestments or an expected tithe, they're quite surely customs.

While I surely do not mean to dispute your faith, I am trying to illustrate that from an external point of view, Christianity does fit your definition of a religion. I fully understand if you do not think of Christianity as a religion, because in your eyes having faith in Jesus Christ true and completely factual, while other religions' conceptions are not. From the perspective of a religionist's perception, it may even seem sacrilegious to categorise truth (their own religion) alongside falsehoods (other religions with false gods). However, personally, I do try to consider other points of view when defining something.

Hondo I. Sackett wrote:

I'll try to answer more of the questions you asked earlier later on but for now, think on these things.

Thanks, Hondo. That's much appreciated. :)

Title: Re: Website
Post by Campisi on May 23^rd, 2008, 7:34pm

Ah, Christianity. One of the most interesting religions out there, in my opinion. It's not my bag (I'm a Shintoist) but if it fits your vibes, then go with it.